
Do you have a definition of the term religion?
A working definition, I think, would have to be a set of habits: habits of speaking, habits of imagining, habits of behaving physically. Habits which are intended to anchor you in relation to something invisible, incomprehensible and challenging.
And how does that relate to definitions of things like faith or belief?
Well, it has to do with thes shape that these habits take; these habits are formed by the stories people tell which are basic to their experience. Your relationship to those stories becomes a relationship of trust. You say, OK, I want to find myself in relation to that story. I trust that story to help me grow. These habits are keeping me in touch with that story, so that’s how I grow in truthfulness.
How did your religious habits begin?
I grew up in a Welsh Presbyterian community and so I got taken to chapel, and that was it for some years. But then, when I was a teenager, we moved house and I discovered the local parish church, which had a different kind of worship, a different kind of atmosphere. That’s partly because it was a high church: music, drama and the rest of it played a very great part in the worship. This is, I think, why I talk about habit, and the physical side of religion.
And, I was lucky in having a parish priest who thought that faith was about growing up, and he always struck me as a deeply grown-up man. He had a sort of emotional and spiritual maturity to him, and that must have rubbed off in some way. I must have been about 14 when I had some kind of breakthrough, in here (gestures to self).
It’s not just about words, but it’s about developing a sense of a relationship with something, someone, who’s enough like a person to be able to talk to in these terms, and yet, enough not like a person for you to need to be very careful about what you are saying. I suppose also it has to do with discovering certain aspects of the Eastern Christian tradition – that helped, and discovering certain kinds of poetry helped. And then somewhere around the age of 20 there was a sense that yes, actually this is gripping, something’s taking over me.
And your academic interest?
That developed at around the same time I suppose. I suddently thought, it’s really interesting seeing how people try to talk about this. I wanted to know, what are the criteria, what are the standards that make sensible religious language? Why can you get a sense of religious language that’s corrupt and stupid? The whole history of theology, which I taught for oever 20 years, in a sense, all about that.
Theology is often about: ‘What does a stupid religious statement sound like?’ I know that some people would no doubt say: ‘All religious statements are stupid!’ But you know, those of us on the inside don’t necessarily think that. We therefore need criteria to say, ‘What are stupid statements?’ And in my academic work, especially when I was teaching at Cambridge, I got more and more interested in this question of: ‘How do you really know it’s God you’re talking about?’ And it’s about developing a habit of that reigning up before you go as far as to say: ‘Yes, this is God we’re talking about; it’s not just a cosmic leprechaun, it’s not just a kind of big mirror in the sky: it’s God.’
Can you tell us something about the God you believe in as opposed to the God of other religions?
I’ll try, yes. I’m a Christian as you may have noticed! They still expect that from Archbishops of Canterbury! That means I believe in God as a trinity. This is one of those ideas that tends to produce a sort of glazing over sometimes. But for me it came alive when I was first thinking about faith as a teenager and then again when I taught it.
What it’s saying is that the word ‘God’ isn’t the name of an individual, somewhere else in heaven. God is the name given to whatever that life is out of which everything else is generated. And the character of that life is the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It’s a rather inadequate shorthand for saying the life out of which everything else comes is a life which, if you like, breathes out and breathes in, and relates to itself, folds back on itself.
I tend to reach sometimes for musical images here. It’s like a three-note chord, it’s something which is already plural, and which flows back and forth within itself; and out of that comes everything else. And we say Father, Son and Holy Spirit, because in the history of Christianity, in the Bible, these words and these images are what we are given.
There’s the aspect of tha life which gives out: so that’s the Father, there’s the aspect which communicates and responds: so that’s the Son, and there’s the aspect which binds those two together and then opens up the relationship to everything else, and that’s the breath, which means the Spirit. So that’s the God that I believe in, and that’s the kind of basis, though not necessarily in those words, on which I preach every Sunday.
Now the difference between that and other conceptions of God is best understood by going to the two different ends of the religious spectrum.
Look at the difference between that and Buddhism. I’ve always thought Buddhism is the next best thing, and I’ve learned a lot from Buddhists. A Buddhist will say: ’At the end of the day there is no thing that you are relating to outside yourself.’ The practice of religion, the habit of religion is so, if you like, gathering in itself, in consiousness, that all the selfish, distracting, corrupting bits of your emotion are purified all the time. They might call it that luminous emptiness, and so out of that, for a Buddhist, flows compassion. I think that’s wonderful, but it’s not quite true. Because when you get to the luminous emptiness stuff, I want to say, yes, that’s also Christian love, but it’s not just the emptiness’ there is somehow, a subject and object.
And then at the other end of the spectrum, there is the difference between Christianity and say, Islam. The Muslim says ‘God is God. You mustn’t associate anything else with God. God is absolutely different, absolutely one.’ The biggest sin for a Muslim is associating something else with God in their doctrine. And again, I think: ‘Yes, bang on.’ But the Muslim would go on to say: ‘Therefore forget this Father, Son and Holy Spirit nonsense. There’s one God, one great cosmic mind saying, ‘do what I tell you and it will be fine.’ And the disagreement there is that we align ourselves with the life of God. But it’s God’s own life that dwells in us, which makes us possible. And that relationship doesn’t just come out of obedience; it’s about going into a lasting relationship of intimacy. So, those are the sorts of differences.
How do you respond to the argument that there is no evidence for belief in God?
Well this is very difficult isn’t it? Because religious commitment, like most forms of serious commitment, isn’t something you just come to at the end of a process that you can terminate. Why is anybody a socialist? If you’re not a dogmatic, scientific Marxist, why are you a socialist? Why does anyone get married? Why might you perform Bach rather than Mozart? Faith is where something comes together for you, where you say: ‘On the basis of the form of the world, the form of the situation, I’m driven towards the best resolution that I can find.’
But if I were asked about evidence for being religious at all, I’d first put in the caveat that you shouldn’t expect it to be like a proof for something like the existence of the Loch Ness monster. To answer the question: ‘Is there a Loch Ness monster?’ you can look at the various bits of evidence and say, ‘Probably not.’ But the question of God’s existence doesn’t work quite like that.
Now there’s a perfectly real question about the nature of that energy which sustains the universe. Is it enough to say, ‘Well, it’s just a self-explanatory system’ or do you have to say ‘something energises the elements of the universe’? It’s at least a good question to ask. At school, in science lessons, when you start talking about the Big Bang, sooner or later most of us will think, well, did anybody ‘press the switch’? Of course, that’s not a watertight argument, but there’s a sort of instinctive drive to ask ‘Does the whole universe not depend on some energising material?’ So that’s one way which I think the idea of God can begin to make sense.
The other way, of course, is completely chaotic, messy and intuitive. And it’s about asking: ‘What do you say about the lives of people who are used to living with God?’ Do they look like more or less human lives to me? That’s where you get almost into an endless exchange of anecdotes. Some might say, ‘Oh come on – Osama bin Laden, does that look like a human life?’ Maybe not. Or you say, ‘Yes, but Desmond Tutu, that looks pretty human to me. That looks more than averagely human; Osama bin Laden looks less than averagely human.’ So you have to weigh that up.
How do you think God relates to people of other faiths and to people of no faith?
Well, the God I believe in is just there. And that life, that energy, that three-fold energy just goes on – it penetrates and sustains us breath by breath. Nobody can fail to be related to that God, because it’s his gift that keeps the whole thing going. So within that framework, the Christian faith would say that because of all sorts of complicated historical reasons – a particular place, a particular country, a particular language, the Holy Land, the people of Israel, the person of Jesus – things suddenly came together.
And so you can say, ‘That’s where it comes through, that’s where the whole thing suddenly comes to light.’ And, I would have to say, as a Christian, that without that, we wouldn’t know what God really was. So, does God never come through at all elsewhere? Well, he must do – there’s a lot of him around!
And it would be deeply surprising if Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, let alone Judaism hadn’t got something to say. The fascinating thing about interfaith dialogue is that you can encounter something completely strange, and then sometimes, sometimes you want to say, ‘ That sounds familiar, I can do business with that’ – even with a Buddhist. So, it’s not as if somewhere up there, there is a God who looks down at the world and says, ‘I think I’m going to talk to those people, and I’m not going to talk to those people. I think I’m going to reveal myself here because I like the look of them, and I will ignore the rest.’
On the contrary, I think that God’s intelligent, loving presence soaks through them. And in this particular circumstance, in the biblical history, in Jesus it came through most fully and made the decisive difference; but in all the others, it’s throbbing under the surface, throbbing away, and comes to the surface in different degrees. And that’s what makes a really lively interaction between faiths.
Can we talk about the concepts of hell and judgement? You rarely hear those words in the liberal Anglican tradition these days.
Well, I’m rather in favour of hell, but bear with me for a moment! I think it comes down, again, to habits. If you get into the habit of living profound untruthfulness, what’s that like? Project that. If you live with deep illusions about yourself, other people, about the nature of the world you’re in, then you bump into reality. What if (I don’t know if this ever happens) you sort of got stuck like that? That’s hell for me, being in this state of perpetual untruthfulness.
What about after death?
Well again, it’s not God saying, ‘You’ve not done very well, off you go to hell.’ It’s much more me on Judgement Day coming face to face with God and thinking, ‘Have I been lying?’ – as the character in Dostoyevsky said, ‘I’ve been lying all my life.’ So then what? Well, I believe in a loving God, and that could mean that if I am prepared to say, ‘I’ve been lying all my life, oh God, sorry!’ I might have some growing to do. But what if I said, ‘No, I can’t face that, I can’t; I can’t admit that’? Well then I’m stuck. That’s hell for me, that sort of frozenness.
So you would characterise it in moral terms, not in doctrinal terms?
I don’t think God condemns anybody just for thinking things. The question has to be: what sort of a person have you made yourself? Is that sort of a person capable of facing the truth? Think of Elgar’s Dream of Gerontius, which is based on Cardinal Newman’s poem. There, after death, the soul finally comes face to face with God and says, ‘Take me away, I can’t stand it.’ And the taking away is part of the mercy of God.
What are your ambitions for religion?
Ambitions? That’s an odd word to use in this context, but I see why you’re asking. I don’t know if I would say I have ambitions for religion. I have profound hopes that what I do becomes interesting, and engages people in life. There’s a great phrase in John’s Gospel, ‘I’ve come that they may have life, and have it in abundance.’ Somehow I hope to act by my faith in such a way that the statement, ‘they may have life in abundance’ doesn’t sound ridiculous.
But of course you know, prima facie, when somebody walks past a church on a Sunday morning, with raindrops streaming off the flying buttresses, and a six-month-old harvest festival poster hanging by a drawing pin on the notice board, and five elderly figures huddling their way into it, it can take a while to make the connection!
But my ambition is to make that sort of remark plausible. Which means, going back to where I started, we have to keep telling the stories about those in whom it looks as if it’s in abundance, Desmond Tutu and so on.
Is it important to you to evangelise?
Yes, I suppose it is. I do want to convince people, but at the same time I need to recognise the very intuitive, unpredictable nature of how people begin to see things. The worst thing I could do is to try and manipulate people into it. But I’m happy to talk about it.
Do you think it’s possible to change people’s minds?
Well, it’s possible that people’s minds can change, but that isn’t quite the same thing. I was asked by a group of evangelical Christians from Africa a couple of years ago, how many people had I brought into living faith in Jesus Christ? It was very clear to them that I was a gutless Western liberal. And I said, ‘Well, I am not sure, because God brings people to living faith in Jesus Christ, not me or you. I can tell you about a couple of people that I sat with as their minds changed, as they moved bit by bit towards faith over a longish period. And, as part of that journey they shared conversations with me. And I think of one person who was baptised on her deathbed, and one Buddhist, finding their way back into Christianity.’
Well, these may not be great ‘conversions’ in a sense, but I think of them as that - they got there in the end. Though, of course, I’m not at all sure of what part I played.
A great number of churches, mosques, synagogues, have been accused of being manipulative, abusive, exploitative and intolerant. Aside from the question of whether or not they make up a majority of any religious community, why do you consider Church important for an understanding of, or a relationship with, God?
Religion is a very explosive thing. When it goes wrong, it goes very wrong. And if it doesn’t make you more human, it does make you less human – Desmond Tutu and Osama bin Laden again. But why do we need Church? Well, let’s distinguish for a moment between Church as an institution, with archbishops and all of that, and the Church as a community. As I read the Bible, God’s way of getting everyone through is not just by giving a set of instructions from heaven that anybody can pick up and read. God comes through in the lives of these people, these tribes of Israel. And it’s in the law, the working out of how to live together, that God reveals Himself.
In the Old Testament the message that comes through is, ‘God has chosen you, and given you the law so that the nature of God will be made known in the community.’ So for example, in Deuteronomy, God says, ‘You’ve got to be good to the strangers and aliens, because, when you were strangers and aliens, I took care of you.’ So, what sort of God do we believe in? We believe in the God who likes strangers and aliens.
Or again, don’t commit adultery: I am a faithful God. Don’t favour the rich over the poor: I am a God of justice and equity. These patterns, they’re not just arbitrary laws, they’re asking, ‘What sort of life is a sustainable life?’ So you can’t get away from the idea of relationships in community being part of knowing God.
It’s the same in the New Testament. But instead of the old model, the nation, Jesus says, in effect, ‘If you want to belong with the people of God, well, all you really need to do is just trust what I tell you and hang around.’ This is what is known as ‘repent and believe the gospel’.
So from the first, Jesus relates to a group of people – that group of people which started out as a bundle of North Country artisans in a backward province. But gradually this group grows, it gets to the capital city, it moves out to include non-Jews as well as Jews and then you’re on the road to a worldwide community: the Church.
And the word used in the New Testament is ekklesia. The word actually means a ‘citizen’s assembly’. It is the gathering of people where you make decisions about your common life. And then grafted on to that is the big metaphor in the New Testament of the Body of Christ.
Then to round it off, the institution, if you like, inevitably comes on top of that. When you’ve got common life, you’ve got to organise means of communication, the places you meet, the people who convene the meeting, and then you’re on the road to the establishment, the institution.
How do you relate to the Bible and those aspects of biblical tradition which might be unpalatable for a contemporary mindset, whether it’s on issues of homosexuality, or God’s vengeance, wrath and jealousy? And how do you relate to the idea of miracles, the resurrection and the virgin birth?
Well, first there is no reading of the bible that isn’t in some way selective. Even the most ardent fundamentalist is actually being selective. So the question is, ‘What is the principle of selection?’ The problem I think a lot of fundamentalists have is that they treat the bible as a flat surface. It’s ALL from God, it’s ALL inspired, and the inspiration ALL works at exactly the same level.
So if it says at the beginning of the book of Job that there was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, it means there WAS a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, end of story. So if anybody weakly and liberally says, ‘Yes, but hang on, isn’t this meant to be some sort of novel?’ when wrath descends!
Now, it’s the flat surface that I object to. Because I think, both the Old and New Testaments in their context are focused collections. You draw together a huge cluster of very varied documents: law codes, histories, novels, songs, and you say these are all together because, taken as a whole, what they give you is a picture of God’s engagement with this human community.
As for miracles, well, there are a number of different kinds of question here: because part of what you’re dealing with in the Bible is, if you like, folklore material. This is because you’re dealing with texts that are looking back hundreds, even thousands of years and so they just have that kind of legendary character. Of course, that is not to say that there is no basis for the outline of the story. But, to take a parallel that interests me a lot, it’s a bit like how the sixth century in Britain is re-imagined in our own literature, chronicle, and folklore through the Arthurian legend. There is something there, certainly, at the beginning, when you can pare it down to some basic things. But what that something has done is to make possible a great chain of imaginative elaboration. And I think we rather trivialise it if we imagine it’s all got to be viewed as Times-style reporting.
Does religion need policing?
By whom? Rational people? Show me some. I think one of the problems we’ve got is that in Europe we inherit this eighteenth-century idea that we all know what a rational argument looks like, what a reasonable person sounds like. They are a bit like us. And that’s led to a very sharp differentiation between rational and irrational beliefs. Now I would say that an irrational belief is one that not only has no evidence for it, but also one which makes no attempt to cohere with a picture of how the world generally works.
Religious philosophers since the beginning have at least a good try at making their beliefs cohere with the way the world actually works, even when they’ve talked about miracles.
But if you’re asking whether or not religious belief is dangerous, I think the answer would probably has to be yes. You’re dealing with such big things and such uncontrollable things. Religion isn’t necessarily nice. It’s serious, it’s deep, it’s mysterious, but it is not automatically nice. Faith is about the reality of God, religion expresses this commitment. Religion in and of itself is not always good for you, because you have got to ask, ‘What kind?’
And that is where there do have to be some kind of cross-checks between what looks humane, and even what looks reasonable from time to time – cross-checks, not policing; and that is why cross-frontier conversations are important.
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The interviewer was Mick Gordon, a theatre director and dramatist.